Transcription:
00:00 – 02:55
Host: Jennifer
Hi, I’m Jennifer Jackson, a practice studio leader with JLG Architects. Today we’re launching the Community Matters podcast, where we listen to gain perspective and gain perspective to better serve communities and the entire people within communities. We’re starting out by exploring incarceration from multiple perspectives. Some of the perspectives are on the very edge of incarceration. Others are right in the middle.
And we’re also starting with family. Today you’ll be introduced to Adam, who is my cousin and who is recently incarcerated for several years. Adam is an amazing, driven, intellectual person that I deeply respect and I always learn something from. I’m grateful for our time together, and I hope you enjoy it and gain perspective.
Episode one The Community Matters Podcast JLG architects. You know, I’ve been thinking about you a lot when we’ve been exploring all of this because I guess I respect you as a person so much, and I know that you are one of the more perceptive people that I know. And then also one of the people that have so much discipline and just an understanding of who you are and what you want to be.
And I think hearing your perspective on things brings me clarity to to my perspective on things honestly. So one of the things we’re trying to understand is I guess this is what we’re finding out. There’s so much people don’t know about what it’s like when you get into the system, and there are so many obstacles that people have that the general population has no idea about, and a lot of people are making their assumptions or positions on things with maybe just a small piece of the picture.
And so I guess what I’d like to ask you first is.
You. You were at one point similar to me in what I know, right? So like five years ago, what you understood about what it’s like to be in prison was probably closer to what I’m what’s in my mind right now. Sure. And then now, five years later, I’m imagining it’s very different. Can you can you tell me what was maybe wrong about or what was inaccurate about what you thought before versus what you think now, or what was the most surprising?
02:56 – 03:07
Guest: Adam
Boy, that’s a loaded question. There’s a lot of things. There’s a lot of things that we’re surprising about the whole experience. But I think that the biggest change that I’ve had with this whole experience is just recognizing how much I looked the other way and just didn’t really care before. I knew that there was a large level of incarceration, but I just never thought that it would include me. So it didn’t involve me, didn’t concern me. I didn’t pay any attention to it. So I think that after being.
You know, giving an invitation that I couldn’t refuse to go to go to this place, it was like, all right, I got a I got to learn how this works as fast as I can to try to adapt to it. And as far as, like, biggest surprises, I mean, everything was I just there’s so many people in there who grow up, whether they are in a community where, you know, they’re drug dealers and everyone they know either goes to prison or has gone to prison.
It’s part of their they just expect that that’s going to be part of their their life, that they’re going to go to prison. And many times people that are in there, you know, they’re counting on coming back. They know that it’s that they’ll be back. And they know that when they get back out, they’re going to continue to sell drugs.
And and so it’s a it’s a different experience for different people depending on where they come from. And I think that people that, you know, like myself would I wasn’t surrounded by that. I didn’t know anybody that had been to prison. So everything was very like I opening. It was looking behind this curtain that, you know, it was closed and I wasn’t ever involved or cared about, like prison reform or, you know, even though you hear that stuff on the news until it affects you, you just don’t let it affect you.
So I don’t know if that answers your question, but it’s kind of like, you know, we could get into a million different nuances about what the experience was like and how it was different than what I expected it to be. But I think most people’s experience, or most people’s picture in their head, is based off of what they see on TV and what they see on movies.
And so. You don’t know what it’s like in those camps or in those different security level prisons, because you don’t really there’s no transparency. And it’s designed that way. And because of that, it also gives the Bureau of Prisons carte blanche to kind of run things however they want, because there’s no accountability, a lack of transparency and lack of accountability.
So I think that, you know, I, I can answer any questions that are more specific, but I think that the, you know, different security levels are going to be very different experiences as well. And, you know, while I was there, we had three different wardens, and that changed the dynamic of the place as well.
Host: Jennifer
Did they literally like, stop their career and start again or just new people coming into their role?
06:23 – 06:37
Guest: Adam
Yeah, I mean, within the Bureau people, those are most of those people are lifers. They’re just working their way up the ladder. So they were promoted and then moved on. Yeah, they move around. And so each each new prison is going to be.
Some kind of a promotion or lateral move until they, you are fully vested and then they retire. So when there was a different person in charge, the whole experience changed. Yeah, it was very noticeable. Yeah, yeah. Night and day. And that that wasn’t just the warden. It was when a new A.W. came in or a new captain. The Bureau of Prisons is a department of the or a branch of the Department of Defense.
And so much of the language around that is the same as military. So the warden is in charge, and then the A.W. and captain are kind of the first two people underneath of this hierarchical tree. The captain is going to be more on the security side of things, and the A.W. is going to be more on the administrative side of things.
And so any one of those three that change will make, there’s a big ripple effect that happens just because, you know, all of a sudden you might notice that rooms are getting tossed more and there’s more shakedowns, you know, when you’re walking across the yard or there’s more.
More restrictions on being able to.
Use certain facilities. For example, you know, I was at a camp, so there was like a theater. Well, for over a year, the theater was just closed because they deemed it a somebody found a clause in a I think it was it was the A.W. that the new A.W. that had come in and he found some something that said that there was that any type of TV larger than 46in can’t be purchased for the facility.
And so he took that to and interpreted it as well. This is a theater screen. It’s larger than 46in, so we can’t use it. And it didn’t say that. It said you can’t purchase, but it was already in place. It was grandfathered in. It was you know, it was a really nice little perk that on Fridays we could go watch a movie.
Well, he shut it down for a year because he said that, you know, it violates this whatever. And really what it was was he just didn’t want to. It was just one more thing that his staff had to do, you know, just to have somebody there to, you know, people could potentially hide contraband in that building. So he just shut it down.
Same thing happened with different outdoor recreational areas, and a new person would come in and all that stuff would reopen or it would, you know, so it was like, tomorrow a new staff member could start and your whole environment could change. Whole life could change.
09:30 – 09:57
Host: Jennifer
Can you help me understand a little bit more about that, that moment? What that orientation phase, I would guess I’d call it.
I mean, yesterday I toured the North Dakota women’s prison in New England, and the warden there described to me that during there’s this orientation phase there, and at that time, there’s a bunch of women in a very small space understanding basically the the system and the rules of being there. Did you go through any sort of experience like that?
09:57 – 10:27
Guest: Adam
And yeah, but it wasn’t like a well-orchestrated. Basically when you get there, you get put into a holding cell and you know, this guard comes in and, you know, says a bunch of demeaning things to you, and then you get handed these ill fitting clothes, and then you walk over to this other area where you get a bag of like, you know, your, your one blanket, your one pillow, your one pillowcase, you know, just just your basic stuff.
And then they bring you to the dorm that you’re going to be at get dropped off. And he’s like, you’re, you know, room 106. And so I walked in and walked upstairs again, this is a camp. So it’s minimum security. And you know, I’m walking by. There’s no doors. So I’m walking by these cells that still call them.
And there’s like, you know, there’s guys that are doing drugs and given tattoos and guys on cell phones and I’m like, this is a circus, you know? Yeah. And so then I walk into this room and it’s a 12 by 14 room with six guys in it, and there’s an older black guy in there and named Parker who I became good friends with.
And he he’s like, all right. He’s like, unpack your stuff. And then we’re going to have a meeting for how this cell operates, you know, and laid down the rules. Were you scared at that point when he said that or. No, I don’t think I was scared, just I was just more so like, you’re just in such a, like a state of shock.
I mean, you just walked away from your for me, from my, from my wife that I didn’t know when I’d see her again. And, you know, I’m I’m my whole life, my whole world has changed. So it’s like that first day is the worst. Absolutely the worst day. But yeah, my experience at a minimum, a minimum security federal facility was there was not really an orientation process so much given by the staff, more so by the inmates.
Gotcha. And it was and all facilities, state and federal. This is probably the one thing that that stands true is the inmates run the facility, the guards and the administrative staff understand this, and they oftentimes will get out of the way so that that can happen. There’s still a large degree of segregation between races, between different even within a race like the Hispanics or Latinos.
There’s, you know, the serenios and the Pisces. And like, you know, they may not get along in one, one facility, whereas they might get along well in another facility.
12:47 – 13:27
Host: Jennifer
So, one of the things that no matter if it’s federal or state, one of the things we’re trying to understand is the impact of relationships. And maybe if we can talk about the relationships between the people that work there and you and others that are there, do you in your experience and in observing others, do you feel like it was the the staff members had a huge impact on the success or people being able to be successful when they when they leave, or was it a pretty, were they actually adding to, to the difficulty?
13:28 – 17:41
Guest: Adam
So it’s like the extreme of any bureaucracy that I’ve seen because the people that wanted to help, the people that would go out of their way to help, there was one one correctional officer in particular who worked in the department, and he would try to set up these different community outreach programs to help give the inmates opportunities to do public speaking, to be involved with rational thinking, with, with can’t remember what it’s called now.
It was this circle deal where people would come in and there would be outsourced outside people that would come in and they would talk about like conflict resolution. And it was it was all a really good stuff. But he got backlash for that. You know, whenever there was anything that would create even the illusion of a liability to the to the prison, he was on the chopping block.
And so it was at his own risk that he did this stuff. It wasn’t like — the incentives that I saw were seemed to always be backwards because instead of and this is probably where the conversation should start. Jared Kushner at one point said when he was proposing the First Step Act.
What is the purpose of a correctional facility? And until we answer that question, we can’t create laws that move us towards that outcome. And if the purpose is to rehabilitate these inmates, because at some point they are going to be your neighbor, do you want them to be rehabilitated or do you want them to come out with PTSD?
I mean, so if your neighbor that moves in, you know that he’s been to prison, would you rather that person come out with a new toolbox full of of tools to be able to become a, you know, a great neighbor and a great, you know, person living next to in your neighborhood? Or would you rather them come out and be, you know, have all these, you know, this prison mentality where they’re this kind of skittish person that is ready to fight at any moment and, you know, just all the data points to the way that we’re doing things isn’t working.
Our recidivism rate is like depending on which subsect you looked at, as high as 97%. And if you’re like a young, a young male going in with and you’ve committed a crime, especially in the drug, a drug offense, you’re. And then if you look at it, there was a congressional research paper that came out, and I can get it for you if you want, but it’s it talks about it breaks down all these different determining factors to give you a code or a, a rating for what your percentage of recidivism will be.
And so because I had a high level of education and I didn’t offend until, you know, over 30 years old, my recidivism rate was much lower. But none of the stats that came out of the data that came out showed that what the prison did reduced recidivism rate, in other words, the longevity that you were in prison, it actually increased your recidivism rate the longer that you were in there, and especially for certain people, certain inmates that had a low level of recidivism going in, the longer that they were in, in any of the facilities, the recidivism rate increased, meaning that they were more likely to offend or to create more crime after leaving, going
through that experience than if they wouldn’t have gone through it. So not necessarily working. No, it doesn’t mean it clearly doesn’t work. And it’s again, if you’re looking at it as this is a form of punishment, this is a form of housing inmates, then it works great. But what is the outcome? Is it better for a society to to use it in that capacity?
Or is it better for society to create a whole new system that is geared towards, you know, giving people a chance to really, truly rehabilitate and giving them the tools while they’re inside.
17:42 – 18:33
Host: Jennifer
So I think it sounds like you were kind of a bit of an outsider, an anomaly within the campus that you were on. And one of the things that I’m trying to process is how much addiction comes into play.
For example, New England, North Dakota, 90% of of the the people there have problems with addiction. Did you notice something similar? And then also, I think there’s this question of getting the support needed for addiction and support needed for maybe mental health for for some individuals. Is that happening? Is that happening in the prison or is that not happening at all?
18:34 – 22:02
Guest: Adam
I think that that’s a big part of it is there’s got to we’ve got to figure out how to incentivize the prison system to have an end goal of rehabilitating people and getting them out of prison as quickly as possible. 5% of the world’s population is made up by the United States, and 25% of the world’s incarcerated are in the United States.
So there is a massive shift in how much we incarcerate versus other countries. But our drug usage is still towards the top in the world. Our drug addiction is still towards the top of the world. There’s a great book called Chasing the Screen, and they talk about a study out of Portugal. And I would recommend that you look at that as a good answer for this.
But essentially they rethought how they were doing things because they had a 4% heroin addiction rate in their country, which is really high, and their fatality rates were were climbing like crazy. So they continue to model their their whole prison system and their whole punitive system and their drug laws after the United States. And it just continued to get worse and it continued to create more problems.
Crime continue to rise. And so they brought in a you want to tell you about this study. So they brought in a group of doctors and they said how do we fix this? Because what we’re doing isn’t working. We’re getting the same outcome as the United States, because the remodeling after the United States and their system isn’t working.
And so one doctor said, well, I’ve got this study that I did with rats. And what they did was they took a rat and they put it in a cage with two bottles of water. So it was in a cage by itself with two bottles of water. One was just water and one was water laced with heroin. And every one of the rats became addicted to heroine water, and died of an OD.
After they had enough data from from that and they said, okay, well, this is a pretty significant pattern. They created a large cage with a bunch of different rats, both male and female, so that they could, you know, have sex and run around. And they had wheels that they could play. And, you know, they had their own little community, and they put the same two bottles of water.
And what they found was that their fatality rate, an overdose rate, went to zero, and that the addiction rate went way down because people had are not people, but the rats had a sense of community and purpose and fulfillment in their life, so that Portugal went out on a huge limb and said, well, let’s model it after that.
So they legalized all drugs and they took all the resources that they were putting towards arresting people, and they put it into community outreach programs to be able to help these people that had addictions move into secure jobs, secure housing, you know, meet their their baseline needs, like in the Maslow’s hierarchy. And they they allowed these people to feel like they were a part of something.
And so by doing that, their addiction rate for heroin specifically was cut in half within the first 12 months. And they continue to lead the lead the pack in this new and I don’t know how many years it’s been now since that was implemented, but it’s a model that I think more countries are going to hopefully look at and say, this makes sense. The problem is, is the money is in the in the prisons. And that’s what’s driving this whole thing.
22:03 – 23:14
Host: Jennifer
Yeah. So another question that I have is maybe moving from relationships and challenges to more environmental questions. You know, we’re just a bunch of architects trying to understand better. And we just want to always understand how things can be done in ways that elevate or contribute to making things better that are happening operationally.
Like, I guess we recognize that your environment can’t do this alone. It comes from what our prisons for that overriding question, then it comes with, how are we going to operate this? How are we going to staff this? And then where is that going to be? Right? And so from that, that level of just the environment, I would like to understand if you saw anything tangible that really spoke to you in terms of how behavior changed, even how you felt in certain spaces versus other spaces, and if there’s opportunity there for architects to change and contribute on a small level,
23:15 – 26:15
Guest: Adam
I would say that absolutely, the environment can impact how mostly how you feel about yourself, which then translates into, you know, your reaction to a situation because there are going to be situations, there’s crummy people that are in there and you’re forced to be in very close proximity to them. So inevitably when something happens, you’re for, you know, you’re faced with the choice of how you’re going to respond or react to it.
And I think if you’re on edge because you know, you’re sleeping really poorly and you’re living in a really rundown, dirty, you know, mold infested environment, you’re much more likely to be short fuzed, I guess, as maybe the best way to put that. And my experience with that was at the facility that I was at. There was four dorms.
We had talked a little bit about this, and one of the dorms was was much older than the other ones, and it was mold infested, and it was very rundown, and the tiles were peeling up off the floor and falling off out of the ceilings. And I mean, it was it’s like anybody that would walk in there would say, this should be condemned.
You know, this this is not suitable for people to live in. And although when so all the prisoners that come through just get randomly put into these different dorms. So it’s supposedly the same cross-section of individuals that are in all the different dorms. It’s the same guards that are walking through. It’s the same food, the same commissary, the same whatever.
So we all should operate pretty much on. You would think that every dorm would have the same issues, but that one dorm that was really crappy always had the most fights, always had the most contraband, always had the most, you know, the most problems, like every week, you know? So I think that that is a good case study of how an environment can impact your not only your quality in their, your your quality of life or your quality of you know, how you feel about yourself, but from a security and a you know the answers that the people you’ll be pitching this to, what they’re looking for is, is this going to make it safer?
Is this going to make it easier for us to do our jobs? And I would say that there’s a resounding yes to that.
But, you know, at what point do you do people look at that and say, well, you know, you can’t make the prisons too nice because perception, because perception, you know, this is supposed to be punishment. So that is something you’ll probably come up against. Is that how do you make it nice? How do you make it so that there’s light and that it’s clean and that it’s it provides people a sense of comfort without a to be too comfortable.
26:16 – 28:23
Host: Jennifer
The other thing we’re trying to learn more about is we’re all a member of a community, and those communities can be our physical community or our professional community, our families. And it seems like one of the ways to change everything or improve would be to find ways for the community to be more a part of experiences, especially in that transition.
So thinking of the populations that come back and maybe expect to come back, what we’ve learned is when you leave, there are so many challenges. And those challenges might be, I can’t afford transportation to get to the job that I have. I’ve used up on my bus vouchers, setting everything up. I’ve got a job. It’s my first day.
I have no way of giving their needing forms of ID, but maybe you’re not able to go there during the hours that they’re open, and then also just having the benefit of the doubt. You know, I think that in my experience, if I tell somebody I am late because of this, they’ll believe me. But someone coming out of the rehabilitation system could try to could say the exact same truth and not have the benefit of the doubt.
And so we’re processing how is community members, how can we help? How can we be advocates for that population that just expects to go back into into the system and that, like you described, they know people and they have expected to be a part of it from maybe day one. Have you do you have any thoughts on how or even just observations on how, as community members, we can change?
28:24 – 32:14
Guest: Adam
Yeah, I mean, that’s like a good Malcolm Gladwell question. I think that there’s probably a ton of things that get us to this point in society where we look at people that have been to prison as like this, this throwaway group of people. And I don’t know if it’s something that I don’t think there’s one simple answer to that.
I think it’s a lot of things, but I really think that, but I really think that answering that first question, what is the purpose of prison would have that type of a, you know, a trickle-down effect? Because if we said if we as a society got behind the idea that prison was a not just this punitive punishment human housing project, but it was truly to rehabilitate people, then we would look at people coming out of that as somebody new and fresh and, and more trustworthy than the person that went in versus the opposite.
You know, now, before you go in, you’re almost looked at as somebody who is.
More trustworthy than somebody that has been to prison, like, oh, he’s been to prison. It’s like immediately your your mind is filled with all of these, you know, preset ideas of what this you know, who this person is now. And so, yeah, you do carry that around a little bit. I guess I try not just not to think about it because it’s not going to do me any good to, to, you know, play this like timid victim mindset.
So but it is but there are challenges. There’s no question getting an ID as a challenge. I was fortunate to be able to get mine renewed right before I went in. And since I was in for just under four years, it’s still valid. But guys that get out, you know, they don’t know where their birth certificate is, they don’t know where their Social Security card is and they don’t have a driver’s license.
So now they need to find they need to get their driver’s license. Well, to do that you need a birth certificate. How do you do that? You need a social security card. How to do that? Well, you need a birth certificate. So it’s like there’s there are some initiatives that are starting to to just do that because there was a, trying to remember their name.
There is a person in Minneapolis here who is heading that up. And Paul would be a good person to talk to you about this as well. But there was a study that showed that just by giving people a valid driver’s license when they get out reduces the recidivism rate by some crazy factors. So yeah, those things can all make a difference.
But you’re right, the benefit of the doubt is gone. I’ve had since I’ve been out, I’ve opened two bank accounts that have been closed just to have a checking account, just to have like a debit card and a checking account to put my paycheck and pay my insurance bill, and they’ve closed them on me. And and it’s for no other reason that I can think of because I have good credit.
I’ve never had any issues with banking now that I’m a felon. So I, I talked to a third bank yesterday and he was like, well, we don’t know exactly. We can’t explain it, you know, can run this report. I ran the report. There’s nothing on there. And I’m not saying this to say woe is me. I’m just saying there are just these challenges that most people don’t deal with, right?
You know, and so you’re getting out. You’re starting over, but you’re not starting over from scratch. You’re starting over like ten yards behind the rest of the race. So yeah, it’s just certainly challenging. And then and then that quick, easy buck to go back into being a drug dealer or maybe doing some kind of fraudulent activity is more enticing because now you’re like, you have this chip on your shoulder.
Why is society treating me this way? Screw them. You know, I think I don’t know, I don’t feel that way, but it’s I mean, I think that that’s a sentiment that’s usually falls.
32:15 – 34:10
Host: Jennifer
Sometimes when I think about really complex issues like this, I try to simplify them even though you can’t. Right. It’s totally impossible to simplify this, this situation. But I’m wondering what you think about my simplifying my simplification. To me, money creates opportunity and it allows people to take care of themselves, take care of their children, their family.
And if there was one thing that could transform the opportunity, when you come out of the system where you would maybe be able to overcome all these obstacles. I think at this point, and I have a lot to learn. I think that there are obstacles that prevent people from even being able to make money. And if there were avenues where people could be sponsored financially or people could be guaranteed a job or the obstacles removed, but how big of a factor, if you were to simplify it? I would to say that people need money to be able to be a part of the community from the beginning, because otherwise you can’t put a down payment on an apartment and you can’t, you know, do those basic things that allow you to move forward. And so, where I’m at right now, I think that money is the biggest obstacle that is placed in front of people and controlled.
Yeah, intentionally or unintentionally. So I guess my question for you is, do you agree with that? And if not, what would you if you could simplify the conundrum, how would you?
34:10 – 36:36
Guest: Adam
It’s probably twofold. I’d say it’s money and it’s community. Because if you hand some of these guys 100 grand tomorrow, they’re going to show up with a new car and a trunk full of drugs to go start selling again.
But if you give them money plus accountability with some type of a mentor or some type of a community resource that allow and I, I’m kind of sheepish about saying community resource because I’ve seen how so many of these community resources operate. I’m talking more about like, you know, I feel super fortunate because my experience was I got out and I had a friend who said, let me help you.
And that’s just not the case for most people. You know, they go in and by the time they get out, they have no communication left. They, you know, a lot of family members and friends have passed or moved on. And they’re starting totally over, you know, they’re in the halfway house. They maybe get a job, you know, maybe their boss is good to them. Maybe they’re not.
But inevitably the wrong people come knocking. So I think it’s I think the community piece is going to is really good. And one of the things that I talk to about with, with one of the outreach programs that I can give you some of their information, but they talked about a program like Adopt a Felon.
You know, where it’s something similar to what you were talking about, where you’re you’re helping that person get on their feet with a financial injection, but it might not be in the form of, here’s a wad of cash. It’s let me help you with a down payment on your place. And, you know, let’s meet once a week for coffee and see if I can connect you with some of the resources that you’re looking for.
Like, that second part is going to be so powerful because so many people can get, especially right now with the job market, you can go out and get a pretty good job pretty quick. And by good job, I mean enough to pay for rent and, you know, cover your bases. But to get plugged in to the ability to start climbing the social ladder again and, you know, just improve your quality of life and have accountability within that, just like the rats in that second scenario.
That’s, I think, totally lacking. So there are very few programs out there that I’ve seen that that bring the community piece to it.
36:37 – 37:02
Host: Jennifer
Gotcha. Well, I have to say that I knew this conversation was going to be amazingly insightful. I didn’t expect you to drop data like a search engine in a library, but I appreciate that. I think it speaks to your approach to things and how much you have to offer, and I’m grateful that you’re my cousin, that you took the time today to talk about this. So thanks.
37:03 – 37:25
Of course. I know it will. Good. So thank you.
Episode one The Community Matters podcast JLG Architects
